too sick for jobseekers allowance?

[cracker]

aww spireite i sorry to hear this the only thing i can thinks of is to tell the jobcenter manager. i wish i could think of something else. mazza is rite tho keep all copies of the letters. (give them photocopies) i been lucky tho if i showd the letter & rang in they let me sign early.
hope it helps hun

[nemonie]

I would demand to see the DEA as well. I once had both my wrist splints on when I went in to sign on (back when I was on JSA) and my right thumb and fingers taped up. The random guy seeing me that day told me I shouldn't have bothered coming in to sign on, seeing as I was so banged up
oh and another time I had an appointment at the job centre in the afternoon and a hospital appointment in the morning. Typically my hospital appointment ran very late and then I had to stay to have bloods done. I had about 10 minutes to get to the job centre after I escaped from the hospital, which wasn't that far away but it was rush hour in the city so no chance of me getting there on time. Plus I felt awful from them stealing my blood and having to sit on evil hospital chairs for hours, so I rang up the jobcentre and explained the situation. They said it was fine and I could just re-arrange my appointment!
This was in Sheffield.

[cracker]

hiya i dont know if i in the rite forum if i in the wrong one please move it to the rite one mods

i went to sign on yestday i had my wrist splint & a knee support so i was hobling too on it was a new floor (gound floor wich is verry handy) it was my new time & i was getting panicky it was 3:45 i was getting panicked becose of the time & rush hour. last time i got abus at that time it took me an hour to get home & i got a bus pass sosome kids called me a retard that upset me. i was trying to explain about my hms & learning dificaltys. i asked for an earlier time so the lady went to the manager with the dwp printout on hms. the manager came over told me not to worry becose she knows me & i got my time changed to 12:20 in the afternoon the mager siad they dont normally do it but mine an exeptional circamsance. but i feel happier & safer with the time.
i was told not to get myself so worked up & not to worry i did right with asking.
that the chatham jobcenter i dont kow what i was getting so worried for now i feel a right plum.

[Spireite]

Thanks Nemonie. At first I thought ringing the DEA would be a waste of time as they all seem to be so brainwashed, but then curiosity got the better of me and I just had to know whether the DEA thought I should cancel my long-awaited hospital appointment in order to be able to sign in the little box on the right day!

At least I only had to give my NI number once this time and wasn’t passed around the building. The DEA (different to the one I have seen before) was quite reasonable to speak to which was so refreshing. However, after he’d been to see if anything could be done (seems exceedingly rare even for a disabled jobseeker to need to attend a medical appointment and just not something that had ever happened before) he rang me back brainwashed with the party line that a jobseeker’s top priority is to turn up at the Jobcentre on the right day. This is far more important than looking after your health so you can work, working, or going to job interviews. You could be mistaken for thinking that the JobCentre is anti-employment. You absolutely have to show up on the right day and can NEVER be excused. Rules are rules. I told him I knew people who had been excused but he said that’s not possible. If you don’t show up on the right day, then procedures are that your file is put in the naughty cupboard and you have five working days to show up at the JobCentre for an unpleasant grilling (his choice of word) elsewhere called the failure to attend interrogation. You then can’t have a normal signing on because your file is in the naughty cupboard so you have to go to the naughty department. It is the computer’s fault, of course, that you get a grilling as to your whereabouts every minute of the day and was it really necessary, because the questions are set out on the computer that have to be asked, in order for a decision maker in Surrey to be in a position to make a decision. Your file is allowed to go to the naughty cupboard twice a year and mine has already been once when I had two interviews and work on the JobCentre day which was bad of me. So really no more interviews or medical appointments for nearly a year I hope the world knows.

The good news is that having missed the special day, it doesn’t matter which of the next five days you show up to get your file moved back to its normal cupboard or else your claim is closed and you really don’t want the aggravation of starting a new claim the DEA advised. So I don’t have to make a special trip on Friday, but can wait until I am passing on Tuesday or Wednesday for my ‘grilling’ and waste of time, and time is taxpayers’ money. The other good news is that they have recruited yet more staff with the ever-increasing number of jobless so I am promised I won’t have to stand waiting for more than an hour this time.

What annoys me is that there is no difference between having good reason and telling them in advance of why you can’t make it on the day and asking them what they want you to do such as turn up on another day of their choice, ie being a good jobseeker and just not bothering ie being a bad jobseeker. It is not at all to do with jobs as people think.

I also asked in case I end up going to an operating theatre on a Jobcentre day (50/50) and what if you are not well enough to go to the JobCentre for a grilling in the next five days, eg if I can’t drive. The DEA was rather dumbstruck and this just can’t ever happen. I did mention I have treatment every two months or so when I am not well in addition to the fluctuations in my disability and we came back to the issue which kicked off this thread that I really shouldn’t be on JSA. People on JSA should be fit and well at all times even with a variable disability and never the equivalent of off work sick a few days as you would be in work. However, I can’t see me getting ESA, which I understand as incapacity benefit and I’m not incapacitated. If I am offered a full-time job tomorrow I will grab it, so how can I claim ESA? Yet with my restriction on not commuting more than 30 minutes, medical appointments and treatment and variability in disability it seems again I shouldn’t be claiming JSA even though I am jobseeking! That was per the Disability Employment Advisor!

[nemonie]

Well technically ESA is Employment and Support allowance - it's only truly like Incapacity Benefit if you get placed in the support group. Then you are deemed too sick to ever (or in the foreseeable future) seek work and are not bugged by the job centre.
If you are placed in the Work Related Activity Group, then they deem you able to rejoin the job market in the close future (1 year limit now for contributory claims). You are 'asked' to attend the job centre for work related activity and can undertake 'permitted work' for up to a year whilst on ESA. There are rather complex rules for this specific thing, it is discussed a bit on the ESA thread. But my point is that you can look for work whilst being on ESA, as they want you to get off it. I imagine they might even take the job you are doing as 'work-related activity'.

[Spireite]

I follow the ESA thread and I’ve looked on the dwp website which is what makes me think I don’t stand a chance of ESA, but I would be happy for someone to tell me how I am wrong. Not much chance of sick notes from the complete stranger called my GP. No doctor knows me or what I have difficulties with at all. Self-managing this condition is OK until you have to deal with the authorities! I don’t have much hope for a medical assessment finding anything other than I have ‘no difficulty working’ so that means no ESA. If you don’t qualify for ESA, then it’s JSA, but JSA doesn’t permit sickness or going into hospital briefly where the nhs hasn’t kindly considered your signing-on day when it arranges which day of the week your consultant works for the nhs! I can’t see there is any home for the frequently temporarily sick. I can’t see that you can oscillate between ESA and JSA on a regular basis as I need.

If I should be on ESA and the DEAs I have spoken to about the problems I have meeting the JSA criteria haven’t mentioned, then I will be cross. At least then I am pleased I have spoken to the DEAs about the problems of being disabled and sick due to the disability only and on JSA.

[Spireite]

Further to my problem above in failing in my top priority as a jobseeker in turning up at the JobCentre on the so-called right day, I’ve now got my date for my daycase and it is next Thursday, another JobCentre day. If not next Thursday then it would be in 5 months time in October due to my consultant having a long holiday, so waiting a week to please the JobCentre isn’t an option.

I dutifully rang the JobCentre to be told by a most nasty man that I couldn’t attend my day case, quickly followed by I should be claiming ESA. You can’t have a hospital admission and be on JSA. I don’t see anything in the rules for ESA that says a day case qualifies you! I don’t see that you can be on ESA for just two days! But you can’t ever be sick on JSA, so what should you do for short-term sickness? I would be working full-time if there were any jobs for old people, with the occasional planned couple of days off sick. There is no unemployed equivalent.

This nasty man also told me that I would have to go the naughty department for a grilling the very next morning. Fortunately I told him I know this isn’t the case, and he quickly admitted that you have five working days to show up for your grilling once transferred to the naughty department. Don’t believe the first thing any JobCentre ‘advisor’ tells you. I certainly won’t be well enough for a grilling the next morning and I’m not sure if I’ll be able to drive!

Then I realized I hadn’t ever given my NI number this time. Didn’t he want to put a note on my file to explain in advance why I won’t be there? No because it doesn’t matter. Not turning up on the right day just isn’t acceptable, though I made him do it.

I did email my MP on this subject with the question about too sick for JSA, not sick enough for ESA so how do I get NI credits? Also, if I’ve done nothing wrong then why should I have to endure a grilling at the JobCentre? If I’ve done something wrong, is it working or looking after my fragile health in attending a long-awaited hospital appointment so I am fit to work? A week later I’ve not had any reply.

I am also in serious trouble with the ‘Work Programme’ due to not being psychic. After months of nothing, they have twice summonsed me to a meeting after the event in a letter of most jawdropping contempt, I suspect to cover up that they haven’t been doing their job for nine months. In addition, I was also working when they had decided I suddenly had to be in a meeting which they don't know about. Two reasons why I couldn't make it. So now I’m being reported to the JobCentre! I do everything I’m told and I’m still in so much trouble!

Isn’t it ironic that there is no mention of jobs at the Jobcentre and no mention of work with the Work Programme! Why?

[AnnaH]

I wonder what the rules are if I were to be claiming JSA and catch... swine flu or some other highly contagious, unpleasant disease and then couldn't turn up for the five days (naughty department or not)? I'm thinking you cannot have been told right, otherwise this is a potential public health risk.

Or what if you had a car accident on the way to your JSA appointment, and ended up in intensive care? Or simply severed a major artery and had to go to A&E to get sewn up? There must be provisions for that. I'm thinking you're getting the run around. What do CAB say?

[Spireite]

Thanks to Trekster for pointing me in the direction of the work capability assessment. I only score 9 for sitting problems and not the requisite 15 so I wouldn’t qualify for ESA. However, it says

WORK-RELATED ACTIVITY GROUP: HOSPITAL TREATMENT
You assessed yourself as being eligible for the work-related activity group because you are having the following relevant treatment - but please note that you will eligible on these grounds only on the days when you are having the treatment or recovering from having treatment:

You will be regarded as having limited capability for work on any days in which you are an in-patient in hospital or recovering from in-patient treatment or where you are attending residential rehabilitation for the treatment of drug or alcohol addiction.

Can I switch from JSA to ESA-WRAG for 2 days, then back again, time and time again? Or should I be naughty and claim 2 weeks from those sick-making people to help my healing process enormously? Not having to worry about the contemptuous people at the JobCentre would be a huge amount of stress reduction.

How much paperwork would that generate on a regular basis?

It’s bonkers. I think the best thing I can do whilst unemployed is to improve my health and I’m pleased I have. If I’d have neglected my health for two years then I would be incapable of working by now. A stitch in time saves nine too.

[star gazer]

Hi spireite, forgive me if I have miss read your post but you state that as you only score 9 points for the sitting activity you wouldnt qualify for ESA as you didnt get 15 point. The 15 points is a total score of all the decsriptors added up so if for walking you score 6 and 9 on the sitting then you have 15 points, they take the highest value you score from each descriptor and add them together and as you say 15 is the golden number. would it be worth double checking?
best wishes
star gazer

[Spireite]

Star Gazer, unfortunately I get 9 points in absolute total!

I've just been for a run! I can do the rest of the stuff, today.

But after the hospital treatment (I have on a regular bais) I will have to miss my Sunday run as I'll be temporarily hobbling around! I could do the test again as if I'd just had hospital treatment to see how long I would qualify for but later as I'm off for my Sunday lunch now. I would then count that as genuinely recovering from treatment, though as usual it fluctuates so much from day to day! Weeks 3 and 4 can also be bad when no-one believes you!

[star gazer]

Hi spireite, it sounds like you are stuck in that horrible no mans land where you are neither one or the other, the complications of needing to attend appts. and jobseekers but yet not scoring enough for esa, make me wonder what on earth people are expected to do. I am sorry it is such a tough ride for you.
best wishes
star gazer x

[gila]

owwwww spireite ... this is so insane!...
so, a disability has to be taken into account by an employer but the agency that is also supposed to help you find work doesnt have to ???????? the DDA doesnt apply to them ?????????

do they deal like this also with peops who have other flaring, regular med bod visits requiring conditions ..like lupus , MS ??????

I think I would now complain to someone 'high up'- cause this is just too ridiculous and just isnt right (and sooo not cost effective for them!!!).
maybe... is it 'just' down to some 'minor bureaucracy mistake' whereby you should be 'signing on as disabled' and you're down as 'fully healthy' ????

with your med bod trouble and now this jobcentre hooha... I shall try my best to never ever move anywhere near milton keynes
good luck!
xxg

[Spireite]

Thanks Gila,

I do have a disabled flag in the JobCentre system but I’m not sure it counts for anything. I got that when I first signed on and refused to commute 90 minutes (on a good day which could be many hours on a bad day) with all my history of problems commuting, ambulances being called and it meaning lots more time of sick. I was told I couldn’t claim JSA because of that and quickly they ganged up on me very intimidating to order me to sign or else, like a threat, see the DEA. The DEA (woman) had no problem reducing my commute to 30 minutes and being on JSA. See above that I phoned the DEA (man) and he had never come across a disabled person needing to attend a hospital appointment before and had to go and consult a higher authority. He rang me back having been brainwashed with the same mantra that the jobseeker’s top priority, disabled or not, is to show up at the JobCentre on the given day. Rules are rules. He doesn’t make the rules. Without rules you have anarchy and you wouldn’t like to live in anarchy would you? He gave a lecture about anarchy and the importance of rules in modern society.

I have emailed my MP but he doesn’t seem to reply on unemployment issues.

I haven’t yet suffered any loss of NI Credits but I don’t see why I should go through all this unpleasantness, to say the least, if I’ve done nothing wrong. If I do, I shall certainly kick off. A professional organization would handle it so differently. The whole JobCentre needs scrapping and starting again with something constructive, effective and suitable for modern times.

I shall have to quote the Equality Act at them but I doubt any of them will know anything about it. I did try it with the work programme bloke (nothing about work there either) who thinks I’m psychic so I told him to add that to my disabilities but he’s just so blank and out of his depth. I shall have to ask what unemployed people with MS or lupus do.

At least my manager at work took it well (me absent) and even mentioned trying to get some hours some other time to make up for my lost pocket money as I worry about her phone not being answered. And she is a business woman of a small charity (for people with health issues) thus restoring some faith in humans. She did add ‘I’m not the JobCentre’!

Yes Gila, my inaccessible Practice Manager (who I’ve never seen) messed up the referral or else I could have been seen months ago. She’s not ‘with it’ like all the GPs I’ve ever seen and I haven’t seen a GP for years. Fortunately my consultant is alert and ‘with it’ and accessible and sorted them out. The Practice Manager didn’t even get my name right for starters which caused the problem! I wouldn’t trust a GP with my verrucas.

I’ve just read an article from Benefits and Work which says if you’re not deemed sick enough for ESA, then you have to go on JSA. So there will be plenty of sick people on JSA. Well I’ve seen plenty limping around, coughing, struggling to breathe and looking dreadful etc. The article mentions the increasing inflexibility and harshness of the JSA regime. Kick a man when he is down eh? How about helping with jobs or is that too radical?

I’m disabled but not disabled enough that it counts for anything and I’m working but I’m not working enough to spare me from suffering the JobCentre (which is nothing about jobs) every two weeks regardless of any other commitments like work, interviews and health-related appointments to keep me fit for work.

[ciderpig122]

I had to ask my GP about this ESA the other day as my boss has cut my hours, thus wages, in half! The GP was dismayed and basically said I can write you a sick note but the muppets that are atos will invent a job they involves you lying on your side being massaged whilst pressing a button, therefore you are employable :/

Iain duncan smith isn't exactly helping the situation is he :/